I had a conversation with a gentleman recently, who is a self-proclaimed “Wesleyan.” I told him that I really appreciate the Wesleyan tradition for a number of reasons, but I specifically think they have a good grasp on pursuing “holiness.” Now, I’m not here to dispute this, that is, whether you can obtain holiness on earth (even though, I hate how that sounds), but we can’t deny the Bible’s teaching on holiness, such as, “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’” (1 Pt. 1:15-16 TNIV). Let’s move on from this point.
Many evangelicals (perhaps, Protestants, in general) struggle with this since they believe that this preaches works-based salvation. I have a few problems with this struggle:
- “Holiness” is generally a term used for those after they have begun to follow Christ
- It seems to me that holiness (and even salvation for that matter) has much to do with the community of believers. We often make things like this too individualistic.
- Many do not preach holiness since they believe it to be the same thing as sinless perfection (which there is much discussion about, and I, in no way, tend to settle it here), but I’m not sure that’s the case.
Along these lines, it is true that Wesleyans often do preach that one can lose his or her salvation. Many evangelicals jump up in anger against this – “Why would God treat such a thing as one’s eternal destiny so trivially?” or something along those lines. But here’s my thing:
Why are you so worried about it?
Let’s say for argument’s sake that you can lose your salvation. Aren’t you likely to keep on top of holiness? At least, you’re likely to attempt to run from sin. On the other hand, let’s say you can’t lose your salvation. Even so, shouldn’t you be just as worried about staying on top of holiness as one who believe he or she can lose his or her salvation?
My fear is that we often say (what was once intended for good reasons), “You can’t lose your salvation” because we are truly afraid (in some way) we will. Yes, it may be biblical. Yes, you may be right. But are we working towards holiness? Or do we throw around those lines just so we can be lazy?
As for me, no, I don’t think you can lose your salvation, but why are you so worried about it?
In all seriousness, can I get some Evan Curry podcasts?
I miss your innovative viewpoints that changed the way I saw the world so much.
My Husband the Theologian. It amazes me to see the man you have become, and I am always so impressed by your insight and knowledge.
I’ve tried to come up with a reasonable response to this post twice now. I guess the things that this really makes me wonder are thus:
Does the Western tendency to focus on the juridical aspect of salvation (most often to the exclusion of all other views) warp the way that salvation and holiness are viewed? Instead of claiming salvation almost as if it were our due for saying a prayer or making a decision on a certain day, may it not be more correct to say “I was saved, I’m being saved, I hope to be saved.” Honestly, if I was made perfect on the day I “accepted Christ” then God has a weird sense of “perfect.” And if I’m being perfected but am guaranteed a spot in Heaven, what’s the point?
It is the “in or out” mentality that gives most Western traditions their problem. St Isaac the Syrian has said that “Gehenna is the love of God.” In our view, all men are thrown into the presence of God at the last Judgment and for those who harbor their sin in unrepentance, the love that God exudes is painful as a fire and for those who rid themselves of sin in submission to God’s will, that love is bliss.
That is done in this world. We strive toward holiness that we might ever pursue it in the last Day. We do work because you don’t run a marathon without working for it. You know, Paul uses plenty of athletic metaphors for a reason.
I am worried about it because even the Scriptural evidence is pretty shaky and the different streams of thought are in tension with one another. I am worried about it because I sin often and I know that I often walk in darkness. I am worried about it because I often love the world and fear that His love will not be in me. The only way that I can overcome that is by the grace of God helping me to shed sins.
@Ben
Yes, I totally agree with the problem of the Western tendency to focus on one view of salvation for the exclusion of others does warp the way salvation and holiness is viewed. I prefer the “I was saved, I’m being saved, I hope to be saved.” I think the Wesleyan idea works with that. With this being said, I think you caught on to the other questions I wanted people to ask.
Could you elaborate on the St. Isaac the Syrian quote? I’ve always been taught Gehenna to be “hell.” If so, how is that loving? Also, could you explain what you mean by the “last day?” I’m still shedding my dispensational shell.
I would suggest that we should be worried about losing our salvation, but I think many people don’t want to think it will happen because they are too lazy to keep trying. I’m not going to rest on a verse or two to say, “I’ll never lose my salvation no matter what.” We must continue to pursue holiness.
Gehenna is eternal punishment. (I’ll refer to it that way as opposed to “Hell” because the world is so ill defined in English and gets mixed up with Hades/Sheol which is a distinction we hold to.) This comes after the resurrection and the last judgment when all will be in the presence of God. This will be torture for those who have chosen their sin over purity and holiness. The very love that God feels toward them will be painful because of the choices they have made and the sin they hold on to. God loves us all unconditionally, we choose Hell if we arrive there.
The Orthodox see the time after the last judgment to be the “eighth day.”
I’ll just add here something that should have been in my first post. To understand our view of purification you shoudl keep in mind that for us there really is no duality in the human as a being. Body and soul make up one entity with no distinction just like your arm and your foot are part of one entity. Just as it is when you physically harm a part of your body, you have harmed the whole thing, when you sin bodily you harm your soul and vice versa. That is why the separation that takes place in death is such an unnatural tragedy.
In this way when we have died and are awaiting resurrection, we can’t really change the orientation of our souls towards God (either towards Him as His people or away from Him in rebellion). So even if you have said the prayer and gone to church, if you haven’t been being purified and becoming more like the likeness of God(as opposed to His image which we all have in us), then you will find the eternal presence of God to be as a fire in your body.
The last thing to be said for this is that even if there are designated physical places for the redeemed and the damned, that it is silly to think of damnation as the utter absence of God (unless I am overlooking something obvious) as was common to say when last I kept up with evangelism tactics since Christ will be made “all in all.”
Have I clarified anything or just said the same things in longer ways?
@Ben
Thanks. I would say the view of Gehenna and Hades/Sheol being different is what I hold (or I think I do). Could you explain the difference?
I like the idea of God not being utterly absent from the damned. This brings up a question, where do people go between death and resurrection? Evangelicals have simplistically said-heaven or hell-but what do the Orthodox say?
I love the EOC. Wonderful, stuff.
Gehenna= eternal punishment. Hades/Sheol= the abode of the dead. These got mixed together first in the Latin and then was assumed by the Reformers. Since the EOC has always read the Scriptures in Greek, we have not had trouble in making the distinction.
I’ll try to answer the question of our state as best I can but remember that the Church, to my knowledge at least, has made no official statement about this and so we leave it up as a mystery. Personal study and pious tradition may inform our opinions but we can’t be dogmatic about such things.
Essentially, and this is only from one source I’ve heard talk about it so there could be nuances I’m missing or just plain other ideas, we believe that souls still descend to Hades. The righteous souls go to Abraham’s Bosom and the unrighteous go to the land of forgetfulness that Hades/Sheol is and both await the judgment there.
Now comes the really esoteric parts. We know that Christ descended into Hell after the Crucifixion, broke the bonds of Hell, and set the souls imprisoned there free. Christ’s Crucifixion is a past event that moved Him from the realm of time as we know it to the eternal realm where spirits dwell. Therefore it is in this place where all souls imprisoned have been (will be) set free. When you operate without the continuum of time, things like this can happen. The oft used “already, not yet” phrase fits this situation the best.
This is also one reason that Christians have always prayed for the dead. Since the Last Judgment has not taken place, we still can entreat God to have mercy on the souls of the departed. Since God is outside time there is also a sense in which our prayers are retroactive, but I’m honestly not able to comment on these issues any more deeply. There’s a great four part series on this from the Faith and Philosophy podcast at ancientfaith.com. I highly recommend it.
This Wesleyan agrees. Why are you so worried about it? Pursue God and holiness either way.